I couldn’t find any reference points [in Govan] that were actual houses, so the
nearest place I could recognise was the dry docks, I hadn’t thought about it that
way… I thought I was just curious about the dry docks… but if you were to ask
me where did you live [as a child] and where was your family I think I’d probably
have to say ‘opposite the dry docks’. |
There was 100,000 people in Govan at its peak so it was quite a famously
populated and bustling place. I remember Scotland road as
a wee boy but most of the actual stuff is gone… it’s completely unrecognisable. |
[Compared to other heritage sites] It’s more interesting that [the dry dock]
seems related to me somehow, even though I never worked in the shipyards or
anything like that. I do feel that it’s part of my heritage as
well as Govan and Glasgow’s heritage. |
Obviously my life has changed completely and the family’s
life has changes completely [since my childhood in Govan] and the dry docks is
kind of a reminder. I mean it has changed but it’s still the same in so many ways. |
It’s a slightly odd and contradictory thing because I’m kinda fascinated with the vibrancy and economic power that must have been there and I would like to have seen it at its peak but actually I prefer the idea of there being birds and fish coming back… I mean I’m more of a naturalist in a sense… I’m not really very
interested in engineering or whatever. Y’know, there’ll be people here that
[lament] the heyday of ship building, many people, me too in a way… but I would
rather there were fish in the Clyde than there were ships being built here if you
had to choose, d’you know what I mean? So even though it’s declining, another
aspect of it is getting better. |
All these areas… they were something else and they will be something else. |
There are places like this all over Glasgow. They are distinctive to the people
who live there but [when developed] they all turn into the same kind of thing. The docks [staying] here would be a great anchor for the history of Govan. |
[BAE systems] is just like a modern shipyard plonked down on a bit of river. I
don’t believe it’s much like what the shipyards would have been… and it’s only a
military shipyard, it only exists because of military contracts… and people are
not going in and out of it, its not like it was. It’s almost like a sealed capsule of military shipbuilding. |
I think life will return. In a way, it was a lovely surprise that
the dry docks were still there in as recognisable a form… I mean I’ve heard
people describe it as a wasteland and a mess and all that and to regenerate and
get rid of eyesores on the Clyde like the dry docks. The idea to [regenerate in a
way that] preserves it is fantastic, so I think in that way, the tide will come back
in. |
Just like all of these waterfront things it’ll be gentrified and it’ll be different but I think the physical stuff is a reminder and
it’s a relationship with the river… but I wouldn’t be surprised to find the whole
thing had been filled in or cleared away… so, I think you’ve got to be realistic. |
I think actually those shipyards brought fantastic prosperity but… I wouldn’t
want any of my family to earn a living in that way with asbestos and all the other
stuff. So I don’t really feel nostalgic for a day when people earned a living in that way, I feel nostalgic for the product of it in terms of relative wealth and a vibrant community. |
I’ve also discovered some huge graveyards and … I don’t really like graveyards, I don’t really have an interest in death or
memorialising haha! It’s simply that they’re quiet compared to everywhere else
and I need somewhere to be quiet for a
wee while… and I think that’s the closest place to me where I can walk
undisturbed for an hour… it just happens to be a space that other people don’t
find attractive. |
I love Kelvingrove, I mean there are times when I walk there in the summer and
its full of people, it’s so cheering and all the students are there and it’s and
uplifting experience. But it’s just during my life at times when I’ve had enough of
people for a while and I need a wee bit of- I’m quite introverted and I need a bit
of space to recover and reflect. I do a lot of thinking, so
somewhere to wander without having to step round people or jump out the way
of people or be nice to someone’s dog… In Govan I can wander lonely as a cloud. |
If there was some other industrial site that’s big enough then it would do as a
sanctuary. It’s a good size, I think [on smaller sites] I wouldn’t feel the same way
at all. |
Because it’s a very unique part of the city [Govan], compared to a lot of places in
Glasgow. Just the fact that it’s got a community and it’s still got a characteristic.
Y’know it was a very kinda socialist community as well I think. And I guess like -
you kind of feel that the docks there are just still hanging on to what was. Even
[by] the fact that they’re [open] and it’s not been completely shut off. |
I’ve been in Glasgow for 12 years and there’s no way I felt any sense of
community [like in Govan]. I know my neighbours names on my street and talk to them and stuff... But it’s that heritage! Because
Govan, although it’s a diverse area, it’s definitely got this real tie to the past and to the shipbuilding. And just to that working class connection. It’s still alive. |
And it’s interesting, my lodger who moved in a month ago, he works in
shipbuilding in BAE but he’s a Geordie. And he’s a real union man. He’s like such
a shipbuilder and his grandpa was a miner. And he was telling me how his dad
was out in all the mine strikes an all that. So he’s kinda got this sorta heritage
that Govan has of this skilled working labour with a real pride to it. |
In spaces like the docks other people will just kind of get that you’re just having a
wander… In a space like that I think that people kind of
appreciate that people are going there to get their own space. I’ve never chatted to anybody down there. I’ve probably just kind of like left
them, you know… |
I think we all crave that, really. I think as human beings you kinda crave to have
like, your own little adventures. Maybe it’s about challenging yourself as well.
When you’re challenging yourself you kind of… you feel alive |
There are these three young guys that I know through my business that I had.
And they had come over here and then they’d done acid and gone down to the
docks. ‘Oh my god!’ Hahaha! I thought ‘that’ll be an interesting experience!’ Haha!
Like for them it was like- cos they were talking to me about it afterwards and the
experience of it y’know- so it just shows that there’s something about the place
that sparks the imagination. And I guess that that wild
space kind of allows the imagination to run a bit. |
Like when you’re in wild spaces you kind of have to sharpen your own wits. And
[in the docks] some bits are really slippy. It’s just that sense of that aliveness of –like enough of a sense of danger that
you have to think. You have to be aware of being there. It’s very very
much–which I hadn’t really thought about before- it’s about when I’m there I’m
not daydreaming about other things. I’m looking at what’s there and the way it
changes and y’know I’m very present there when I’m in that space. And walking
around spaces like that, you can’t just let your mind go in a daydream
somewhere. So it’s much easier in that space to be present I think. |
I think if you grew up rurally then –
maybe because you’re safer to roam and safer to explore. Y’know, kids that grow
up in the country are just way more comfortable with being out and y’know
climbin over trees an kinda getting dirty an that kinda thing than kids who’re just used to parks and streets and maybe haven’t had the
freedom? They’ve not ever been given the freedom to like wander off on your
own see whats over there. |
It’s the heritage that keeps it interesting and connected with the history of Glasgow because I’m not from Glasgow, I’m not a Glaswegian.
Glasgow is one of these places where, there’s a lot of people who grew up and
stayed in Glasgow. There’s a lot of Glaswegians in Glasgow!
So do you feel like an outsider in someways? Oh… I’d say so! But I feel like an
outsider in a lot of places! Hahaha! |
Although it’s the wild place that I get from being at home it’s not what draws me
there. It’s not like I feel like I’m going home when I go there. |
It was the kind of place my mum would say ‘don go in there, it’s a bit dangerous’. And you could see it was but at the same time,
you’re a kid and you don’t care as much and if your mum tells you its dangerous
you’re probably gonna go there even more! |
And yeah, you meet people - that’s all part of it. It’s like always quite an enjoyable conversation or you’re gonna take something from it.
I’ve never spoke to someone down there and left without a story to tell. I couldn’t
say that for many other places. Which is why it’s such an interesting place, you
can talk to other people about it. |
Seeing the way it was in the summer [with so many people using it after
lockdown]… That’s the kind of thing that you would have liked developers or
somebody to have seen, to have been there that day that I was there- it would
have been impossible to walk around and say ‘oh this place would be much
better if we just put houses here’ y’know! You walk around on a day like that and
see so many people enjoying the space in their own way- an every single
person’s sittin there with a smile on their face and happy and they’re enjoying
using the space. Cos’ [everyone’s] doing what they wanna do down there, that’s the dynamic of the site I think. And that’s what I
find interesting, people do have completely different views of it and what it
means to them. |
I’m sorta already consigned to the fact that somethings gonna happen there. Its jus a case of use-it-as-much-as-you-can-til-
it-happens. Maybe I don’t have as much negativity around that as other people
do. I mean I love the place, I don’t want it to go –but also, I mean it’s not going anywhere, it’s jus maybe gonna have a
different function or be used for another purpose. |
I didn’t grow up seeing it in use. To me it’s always been derelict, I’ve never seen it
having a function. I think that must make a difference. I guess if you’re 50 years
old and been living in Govan your whole life, you had friends and family that
work there and things like that, you’ll definitely have a different attachment. |
I think about that a lot. Primarily because of my grandpa. He left Glasgow in the
60s and he never came back. He just moved to New York and that was it. I jus
wish he woulda came back. I just think that so much changed- if he left Glasgow
in the 60s, the difference woulda been like insane. So, yeah when you’re walking
about [in the docks] it does give you that image ‘oh maybe this is what Glasgow
was like when my grandpa was walking around, he’d have seen this place in full
use’. So I guess its like holding on to little things like that… I think maybe because
I didn’t spend that much time with him too. Because it’s like we were never
really with each other that much to sit and talk about all this stuff so it’s more
like in your head, ideas an wondering about it… I mean like in my whole life I probably spent like 30 days with him. [And now] it’s just me that’s here. It’s just me. So if I go somewhere, its like the whole side of the
familys just gone in a way so… it kinda just makes you wanna stay. |
Yeah, it wouldn’t have been as fun to walk aroun there 15 years ago or 10 years
ago for sure. Yeah definitely not. It was all overgrown and pretty dangerous to be
honest. A lot of drug users and stuff like that. But, I was jus a little kid, I didn’t
really worry about it. I’d jus run away if things got bad hahaha! We were alright! I mean it was a strange thing like it was unsafe but the fact that you were way more hidden sometimes felt like it was safer. |
Yeah, he’s funny. I’ve met him a couple of times down there. He jus sorta talks at
you. I think he jus likes to get outa the house so he can get someone to rant at-
his wife’s probably happy that he’s outa the house as well to be honest so she
gets peace for a while!– Yeah, some people jus want someone to talk to. It’s a nice thing obviously. Especially nowadays [with Covid restrictions]. That guy mighta
usually gone to a pub on a Friday or something and met his pals and he’s not
doing that anymore. |
I’m happy just going down there myself. I
feel safe, you can sorta see what’s coming from most angles and on a nice day
there’s nothing better. If you’re there on a nice summers day it’s just- some of the
best days I’ve had just sitting down there by myself enjoying the sun. |
My life would be a lot sadder without [graffiti] that’s for sure. You need to just do
things you like don’t ya? Haha! What keeps you happy, that’s what keeps you
sane. I know I would loose my mind if I wasn’t able to go out [and paint] sometimes. I mean if I haven’t painted for a couple of weeks I’m probably not nice to be around. I’m not that bad! But y’know I’m sure if you
asked my fiancée, she would notice. And she would just say to me y’know ‘go out
and paint, get it off your chest’. I’m just not my usual happy self. It is [a
meditative thing] for sure! |
That’s all it is really, it’s just good memories. Good feelings you get when you go
there and you think ‘oh yeah I remember that sunny day we were sitting over
there havin a BBQ’ ‘that time we watched the fireworks here’ ‘that time did-
y’know they all come racin back all at once. When you go [to the docks] it’s
almost like steppin into a time machine for me, way more than other places. It’s
just the fact we’re having fun there! Or because of the fact I’ve been there with so many different people. |
Basically I’m an anti-globalist, what can I say? Haha!... I just don’t see what’s
wrong with local governance and making things for people
locally as far as you can. |
[When we talked before] there was an old white haired guy who stottered past.
An he’s blitzed all the time. But he was a guy who woulda worked an things around the place an he’s got an ambition level in him which
means he gets out an he wanders all over the place! Slightly aimlessly, but he
doesn’t jus sit n stare at the TV or something. He’s got the ambition to get out n
do something even if it’s pointless. An these people have jus had their purpose
taken away from them… But y’know, these people are drinking themselves to
death. Their sort of place in the world doesn’t exist anymore. |
Everybody’s being thrust into universities whether or not it’s really the right
course for them. Y’know we’ve got a shortage of
electricians an plumbers but we’ve got no shortage of people who’ve got a degree
in management! |
The artisans do have a respect for the heritage. They love
that [The Shed is] an old shipbuilding building. They’ve got that degree of respect for the history and the heritage. And that is
important but it doesn’t connect to the original people who were there. |
Once [the mooring bollards from the docks] were stolen … We said [to the
developer] ‘Listen, we’ll get a trailer, go up, collect them from the fragmenters
and we’ll even store them’. So it wasn’t like it was gonna cost em anything at all
or cause em any problems or anything. Yet they just sorta ignored our offer and
said ‘No, scrap em an give us the money’… You’re talking about people who’re multi-million pound housing developers and they
care so little about it that they literally would rather just grab a few hundred
quid in scrap value [than preserve heritage features]. |
The trouble is behind us but now it’s in front of us in a different form. The niceties that have come to Govan, as result of these things,
might all fall apart. If people are struggling and people are in debt and people have problems then there will be crime. |
There’s a funny old saying that goes around in construction that’s ‘you may have
a Bentley but can you hang a door?’ Haha! It says you’ve got all this money and
all these resources but could you actually make things happen?... Do you have
any sort of survival skills? Can you make things? Can you do things? Can you
figure out how to solve problems? …When you can’t afford the payment on your
Bentley. |
Graffiti is a great indicator of how much people value the civilisation that they’re
in. If you value the civilisation that you’re in, you don’t wreck it. Street art comes from artists trying to make peace with
graffiti… and trying to make the place pretty but it doesn’t get away from the
undercurrent problem which is there’s people in the world that don’t value the
civilisation we live in because they’re disenfranchised. |
It’s a hold out for a lifestyle which I would say is more desirable. And ultimately
it has to happen. It has to happen, there’s no
point in saying otherwise. … There’ll be a lot of upheaval but the upheaval will be
the situation that allows these artisans to build that future.
And make a society where we make things locally. |
I dunno, you look around and see people that just don’t have skills which people of their sort would have had 30/40 years ago.
And they don’t have a scoobie how to do anything. And they’re almost terrified of
the world because there’s a great calm that comes from looking at the world and saying ‘I know exactly how everything works… I
know how to fix it if it goes wrong’... If nobody knows how anything works,
society’s extremely vulnerable to complete collapse … And that’s fundamentally
a weakness, it’s files with no backups. |
Govan’s a wee bit like that in a similar way. Unless you’ve got a great history in
Govan, you’re an outsider effectively. Slowly over time I think
we’ve become a wee bit more accepted. |
I think that [the connection between the historic skilled labour force and the new
population of skilled artisans] is possibly something that’s neglected. And it’s
something that if it doesn’t happen fairly instantly, it’s never gonna happen
because the skilled labour population is a dying art. |
What the artisans are doing is keeping alive skills
almost as a background to the loss of the skilled labour… They’re an artier bunch
that are incomers to Govan effectively. And that is what it is but the skills that
they’re maintaining are no less important y’know. It’s the ability to weld and do
carpentry and all sorts are skills that we need to maintain in society. |
I do want to see it done up. I don’t want to see it done up as in posh houses and
whatnot an it jus looses any sort of character. |
I think [I’ve always had] the idea that ‘oh something’s gonna happen, something’s
gonna happen’. Now I’m at the stage where I don’t think anything will happen at
the dockside for the next thirty years. There’s just not gonna be the money, it
needs big investment. I don’t see there being any sorta meaningful development
of it. But, we’ll see what happens. It’d be a shame if they fill in any of the docks. I
think that’s not on. |
I’m not actually sure if there’s a place for me in this world. If this is really where it’s going. It’s just a false
image based society. It’s not about how you actually do something, it’s about
making it look like you can do it y’know… It’s all ‘look at me and my Bentley on
Instagram’. It’s not ‘look at what I made today, look at how I improved the world
today, look at what I crafted today, look at whose life I made better or look at
what I taught somebody’. |
Additional recordings of writings: River silting, watered common: reimagining Govan graving docks. Ruth Olden, PhD thesis. Alexander Patersons Environmental Survey ‘Edgelands of practice: post-industrial landscapes and the conditions of informal spatial appropriation’ Imogen Humphris and Ward Rauws ‘Getting deep into things: Deep mapping in a ‘vacant’ landscape’ Imogen Humphris, Lummina Horlings and Iain Biggs* Govan Dock Regeneration Trust Riverside Solidarity Project Memory of Water- artist led project * a review of the arts research process behind the creation of this site to be released later this year |